During the meeting between Doctor Waldo Werning and myself, Werning refused
to explain who died on the cross because he claimed it is a philosophical
question. Werning claims I am guilty of breaking the Eighth Commandment
because I claim his book teaches heresy.
The following is a brief excerpt from the 2 ½ TAPED CONVERSATION between
Werning and Cascione on the doctrine of the Trinity and the Person of Christ.
After nearly a half hour monologue from Werning, with no moderator, I asked,
"Do I get to respond to any of this?" Then, for about 10 minutes,
Werning engaged in the only substantive dialogue between us. The following is
brief part of those 10 minutes.
Cascione: "Every activity of the Trinity is in every person of the
Trinity."
Werning: "Was the Father crucified on the cross?"
Cascione: "Have you looked at the difference between the 'ad extra'
and the 'ad intra?'"
Werning: "Was the Father nailed to the cross? Yes or No!"
Cascione: "No, and you know He wasn't?"
Werning: "Well, you said, They were interconnected."
Cascione: "Alright, are you ready? I have a question for you. When
Christ died on the cross, was that part of God or all of God?"
Werning: "Are you talking about the Father?"
Cascione: "I didn't say that. I said, 'When Christ died on the
cross, was it part of God or all of God?'"
Werning: "You are asking philosophical questions."
Cascione: "That is not a philosophical question."
Werning: "What does the Athanasian Creed say on that?"
Cascione: "It was all of God."
Werning: "Where is that in the Lutheran Confessions and the
Athanasian Creed?"
Cascione: "It is in Pieper too. You can't divide up the
Trinity."
Werning: "Where is it?"
Cascione "You can't say that we have one third of God up there on
the cross."
Werning: "You are using weasel words of God and getting out of the
Father. Because you said they were all involved in every act and the Father
was not nailed to the Cross."
Cascione: "When Christ died on the cross, was it all of God or part
of God? Are you going to answer that?"
Werning: "I'm not going to answer God. Because I know as well as
you. I'm no infant in this, what you are talking about. Secondly, about the
whole unity of God, the Athanasian, One God, in One God Head, the whole
business."
Werning: " . . . and you are fabricating stuff and you did it right
now."
Cascione: "Are you going to answer that question?"
Werning: "It is a philosophical question."
Cascione: "It is not a philosophical question."
Werning: "My answer is, the Father was not nailed to the
cross."
Cascione: "You won't answer."
Werning: "That is my Answer. Yes, alright, now let's go on."
The following is a quotation from the Luther Confessions, The Formula of
Concord, Thor. Decl. VIII. Of the Person of Christ, par. 33-34 Concordia
Triglotta, page 1027.
"Next to the article of the Holy Trinity this is the greatest mystery
in heaven and on earth, as Paul says: 'Without controversy, great is the
mystery of godliness, that God was manifest in the flesh, 1Tim. 3:16.' For
since the Apostle Peter in clear words testifies (2 Peter 1:4) that we also,
in whom Christ dwell only by grace, on account of that sublime mystery, are in
Christ, 'partakers of the divine nature,' what kind of communion of the divine
nature, then, must that be of which the apostle says that 'in Christ dwelt all
the fullness of the Godhead bodily,'(Col. 2.9) so that God and man are one
person?"
The Lutheran Confessions also speak of Christ as: "God,"
"the Son of God," "Jesus Christ," "The Word,"
that is the Second Person of the Trinity, etc. All of these descriptions about
Christ are correct and not contradictory.
The Athanasian Creeds states: "So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God."
Werning's teaching on the Trinity is defended in print by "Jesus
First" and Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Meyer, South Wisconsin District President'
Rev. Paul Borgman, South Wisconsin District Vice-President' and Rev. Ronald
Krug, South Wisconsin District Circuit Counselor.
The above three officers of the South Wisconsin District have published
letters saying that I am guilty of breaking the Eighth Commandment for calling
Werning's teaching on the Trinity heresy.
Werning's Witnesses for the meeting were: Rev. John Reusch, Rev. Toshio
Okamoto, his associate pastor, and past Chairman of the Council of District
Presidents of the LCMS, Dr. John Heins.
Werning is now claims he will file charges against a spectator, Rev. Gene
Koessel for making the following statement:
Pastor Gene Koessel reported to Redeemer Lutheran Church Voters' Assembly
on March 11, 2002: "If Cascione said he himself spoke 10% of the time,
to me, it appeared that Cascione spoke much less than 10% of the time. My
observation was that Werning took control of the meeting. There was no
moderator. Werning read off a 13 page single spaced document. He kept asking
questions and avoided answering Cascione's questions. When Werning finished
reading his statements, he ended the meeting."