Wallace Schulz, Lutheran Church Missouri-Synod's
Second Vice President, suspension of Atlantic District President David Benke
for participating in an interfaith service in Yankee Stadium has become
national news.
On July 10, 2002, FOX's Bill O'Reilly invited Rev.
Donald Matzat of the LCMS to speak in favor of Benke's participation in the
Yankee Stadium event. Presbyterian millennialist, Rev. Louis Sheldon was
invited to speak in defense of Wallace Schulz's decision to suspend Benke.
The transcript below was taking from a VOICE
recording of the O'Reilly Factor Program, Wednesday, July 10, 2002. We believe
it is at least 99% accurate. As in interviews of this nature, the
participating individuals would interrupt the person speaking and it becomes
very difficult to separate the comments. In some areas we could not transcribe
and it is shown as "......"
Bill O'Reilly - BOR - Host of the O'Reilly Factor
Don Matzat - DM - Pastor in Pittsburgh, PA and friend of David Benke
Lou Sheldon - LS - Presbyterian minister, in Washington and President
of the Traditional Values Coalition.
We pick up Bill O'Reilley's opening remarks here...
BOR - ..Wally Schulz "Benke is joining with other pagan clerics in
a inter-faith service. This is an extremely serious offense against the God of
the Bible." Rev. Benke joined the prayer service in New York. There were
also Catholics, Jews, Muslims and Hindus and if he doesn't apologize to the
Synod, they may fire him.
Joining us now from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is Don Matzat, a Lutheran
pastor and a friend of David Benke's and Presbyterian Minister, Lou Sheldon in
Washington, the President of the Traditional Values Coalition.
O.K. now. Rev. Matzat, you talk to Benke all the time and is he repentant
here? Does he feel he has done anything wrong?
DM - They have accused him of religious syncretism, which is the
blending together of various religious beliefs and traditions. But the
question is. "Was the Yankee Stadium event religious syncretism?" I
mean is Rudy Guiliani the great religious syncretist of the 21st Century
calling these people together? I mean, were the Jews saying they agree with
the Muslims, and the Muslims agree with the Hindus and the Hindus are
acknowledging the God of the Christians? Bill, this was not syncretism. This
was a unity around the hurting City of New York where these clerics came
together and spoke to their various constituencies. This produced no
syncretism of religions. I mean - heavens, what are we going to do, accuse
Rudy Guiliani of promoting sinful syncretism and accuse George Bush of
promoting sinful syncretism by hosting the event in a national cathedral? This
was not syncretism, it was an opportunity for David Benke to stand up on
national television and to offer a prayer in behalf of hurting people in the
precious name of Jesus.
BOR - That sounds logical to me Rev. Sheldon, where are we going wrong
here?
LS - Well, I think the first thing you have to understand is that
syncretism is a very, very bad thing. I happened to watch this, I can't
remember if it was on Fox or on which of the channels when it took place on
that day in, right after 911. I came away from that showing, it was about 45
or 50 minutes that I watched it, with a very bad feeling, even myself.
BOR - Really?
LS - So when I heard this, yes you see, we call it in political terms
": mush." It was somewhat of a big tent. This is kind of trying to
do in theology a big tent. Then you really end up having "mush" and
the big tent crashes down on you. So, I support the Missouri Synod's policy
that you really should not be advocating or promoting this kind of experience,
you know, with Christianity.
BOR - I am not getting it though Rev. Sheldon. Here, I mean look. First
of all it is healthy on two fronts.
#1 - It brings all of the religions together in a show of solidarity. It is
charitable thing that we are praying in our own ways, in our own individual
ways to a deity for the families of the victims. It seems to be a very
positive and patriotic thing to do. Am I wrong?
LS - No, you are not wrong. And that is a hard thing to come against,
and I certainly would grant that point because of 911 and because of my deep
and moving in my own spirit after 911. But, I think what the Missouri Synod
Lutheran Church has the policy. And you've got to understand their policy, if
you have to understand their theology; you have to understand their whole
history.
BOR - And their policy is, "you can't pray with anybody else
unless they think exactly the way you do."
LS - Well, it is what came across that day. I tell you. The feeling I
got from it, was this "mush" feeling....
BOR - Look, I know there was some grandstanding there, and I am not
going to mention any names. But that is secular. I mean, the prayers to me
were positive. Am I wrong here, Rev. Matzat?
DM - Are we going to suspend a man from the ministry of the Lutheran
Church because somebody got a feeling? I mean, are we operating this thing on
subjective feelings. Syncretism has an objective definition to it. What
syncretism was produced? Now, Lou Sheldon of Conservative Values, is he saying
that George W. Bush, our conservative Republican President, pro-life, promoted
religious syncretism when he hosted the National Cathedral event?
LS - That is a horse....
DM - Please let me finish. That is far more a sin than anything Bill
Clinton did.
LS - That is a horse of a different color. Billy Graham preached. You
had a Pentecostal - this was all within the context of Christianity. You
had.........
BOR - You had a Rabbi there - and you had Jews there.
LS - May I finish? You had Bill Graham preaching a phenomenal sermon;
you had a Pentecostal Methodist minister from Houston, who the President has
known. The President had a very STRONG - non-syncretism thrust there. You
can't take Jews as a part of the problem of syncretism, because the Jews and
the Christians are right there together because of the Old and the New
Testament. But there is a point that separates them, but it isn't a point that
divides us.
BOR - Look, I am not getting any of this. My religion, Catholicism
says, I can pray with anybody. When I study the Gospels, Jesus prayed with
everybody. Tax collectors, prostitutes, I mean, he was praying with everybody.
So, I am not getting what this is based on, at all.
LS - Well Bill, this is an issue of not wanting to pray. I will pray
with Buddhists. I will pray with Hindus. I will pray with anybody else.
BOR - So what's the deal, what's the problem?
LS - Listen, you hit the nail on the head. That day turned out to be
something that was very, very bad.
BOR - Why was it bad?
LS - Not in terms for showing respect for those who had been killed by
the Terrorists. No, no, no. It was bad because of the grandstanding and
what...
BOR - That's the something that everybody makes an individual thing of.
I more worried about theology. Now I am going to give you guys 20 seconds each
to wrap it up. But, I will tell you my opinion and then we will go to you Rev.
Matzat and then we will go to you Rev. Sheldon. 20 seconds, please.
Jesus was inclusive, and religions that exclude in my mind are not
charitable and not following Jesus. Rev. Matzat, go.
DM - I am not about to give up my convictions and join in the circle
and sing "Kum ba yah." There's things I believe. There are truths I
hold. I do believe Jesus Christ, Bill, is exclusive But, when I am operating
in the civil realm, when the major of the City of New York, not the Dali
Llama, the mayor of the City of New York pulls together a gathering, and I am
a part of that city, I have constituents in that city, I would be foolish not
to be there praying.
BOR - O.K. I've got it. Rev. Sheldon, wrap it up please.
LS - Jesus Christ said, "the way is narrow. You shall take
it." Jesus very clearly set the standards, I think we have to elevate Him
as Lord and Savior as Christians and not get ourselves taken up with those....
BOR - I think He likes the Hindus. I think He thinks they are O.K.
Thanks very much gentlemen, we appreciate it.